Following the last article on fellowship in our churches, the one about shy people, my son Marty connected me with a website in which a college professor was sounding forth on the difficulty he and his wife–both shy people–are having locating a church in their new city on the West Coast. They’re looking for one of their denomination, one of the old-line liberal churches, and are quite specific as to what they like and cannot stand.
Below are the eight points he makes. Rather than posting my comments on his website, the way bloggers invite readers to do–in fact, we treasure those comments and invite them here–I’ll leave my conclusions here. I’m confident the professor would not appreciate much I have to say, my being Southern Baptist and no doubt a fundamentalist Bible-thumper to his way of thinking. Besides, he’d probably tell me if I’m going to write this much about what he said, I should get my own website. (I told a writer that recently. He/she came back and said, “Sorry. I don’t keep up with all the places I blog.”)
Well, since I have my own website, here we go…. Let’s call the professor Henry and his wife Hankette.
1. Please, please keep your hands off my wife and off me.
Henry doesn’t like hugging, and worse, he abhors people he has just met who stand there stroking his arm, shoulder, or back. Hankette is worse about this than he.
2. Do not call us out by name in front of the entire congregation.
Hank writes, “Our modus operandi when we’re trying out a new place is to take in the full service, then decide whether to fill out the visitors’ card.” He says, “Handshakes? Smiles? Absolutely. But if we tell you our names, don’t say to the whole congregation, ‘Be sure to welcome Henry and Hankette who are sitting on the back row!'”
3. We’ll come to the post-service potluck if we want to.
Evidently, someone invited them to stay for lunch and added, “It’s okay if you didn’t bring anything.” That offended Henry. He writes, “We heard the minister invite everybody. We know it applies to us.”
4. If we fill out a card, don’t stalk us.
One church they visited promised, according to its website, that this is what would happen to those who fill out a visitor’s card: immediately following the service, a church worker knocks at their door with a gift. He/she does not come in, but just gets acquainted at the door. Thereafter, for the next several months, telephone callers from the church periodically check on the visitors to see if they are being adequately welcomed and integrated into the community.
Henry writes, “That’s right…after having a parishioner follow us home uninvited, we’d have had our own personal telemarketer for ‘several months’ thereafter.”
5. There is no need to raise one’s hands when singing.
In charismatic churches (his term), when worshipers raise one hand to the sky, palm out, while singing or praying, “this weirds me out,” Henry writes. And then, on those occasions where they raise two–TWO!!–hands to the sky, he’s out of there. “This led me to wonder if someone had kicked a field goal nearby.” He adds, “Seriously, if there are multiple hands up, there’s little chance I will return to that church.”
6. I’m not a fan of the praise band.
A guitar, piano, organ–fine. But the keyboards drive Henry up the wall.
7. And if you must have a praise band, do not…do not…do NOT clap on one and three.
Henry writes, “Now, anyone 70 and younger who matured in the post-Elvis era should have no trouble understanding the idea of clapping on the backbeat.”
Now, personally, I do not have the foggiest notion what clapping on one and three or on the backbeat means. As one with a stunted sense of rhythm, I’ve noticed my tendency to clap on the opposite beat from the one church members around me are emphasizing. I take that as a birth defect and usually choose not to clap at all.
8. Presentation really matters in a sermon.
Henry and Hankette do not like jokes in a sermon. They don’t want the minister to “put on a show.” “If entertainment were my goal, I’d stay home with the TiVo. Instead, I want a time and place to think about God and re-center myself.”
Henry writes, “I don’t even go to church to make friends. That’s a secondary concern. I do hope to make friends at church, but that’s a byproduct of meeting people with similar values. But when I’m at a service, it’s not to be friendly; it’s to connect with God.”
He concludes with these fascinating lines….
“When any of these seven (he had eight) rules above are broken, I can’t re-center. I can’t connect.”
“So, we’ll keep shopping around. If you’re a member of (a church of his denomination) in (that area of the Northwest), we might be visiting you next. You might want to abide by these rules. If you do, you might have yourself new parishioners who will likely be around for about a quarter century.”
There it is. What do you think?
I let the article marinate in my head for two days, read the entire thing to my wife, and then phoned her three hours later to get her opinion. Discussing things with Margaret helps me clarify my own feelings on matters.
At the end, readers are invited to leave your comments. And lengthy is actually okay, so long as you are on subject.
1) What an egotist Henry is. He seems to think Christendom should adapt itself to his personality style. He assumes everyone in the church has his/her act together and he and Hankette are the only seekers in the place, so members of the congregation should accommodate themselves to them.
2) But, Henry’s right in a number of areas. Churches do not exist–or should not, at any rate–just for the extroverts and huggers among us. Pastors need to watch the tendency to amuse and entertain from the pulpit and remember their assignment to “preach the word” (II Timothy 4:2). About the hand-raising and praise bands, Henry needs to loosen up. This guy is too uptight.
3) Henry seems to think that corporate worship should be identical to private, individual worship, just more crowded. But there has to be a reason Scripture calls on God’s people to come together for worship (Hebrews 10:25). In a special sense, the Lord is more present with the group than when we are alone (Matthew 18:20). When people who meet to worship join their voices and hearts–and who knows, maybe their hands too, Henry–something divine often happens.
4) Shy people need to work against the shyness and not let it rule their lives. Like fear, it will grow if given in to.
In her biography on cartoonist Charles Schultz, “Good Grief,” Rheta Grimsley Johnston told how the man was afraid to fly. Yet, he took at least one plane trip a year in order to fight against the fears. Shultz knew if he gave in to the fear of flying, next it would be a fear of driving, then a fear of leaving home, until finally, he would not be able to leave his room. Fears must always be resisted.
Same with shyness, I think.
5) I’d like to ask Henry, “Where is the Holy Spirit in your search for a church?”
Henry and Hankette are church-shopping as though they are atheists, on their own, with their list of needs and requirements. “Meet these and we’re yours,” they are announcing. Sheesh! No, thank you.
I don’t want Henry and Hankette in my church. I don’t like their attitude of “meet all my requirements and we will honor you with our presence.” These are the kinds of members who put the worry lines and grey hairs in the pastors and drive them to early graves.
I’d like them to meet John and Gloria Pake, who were members of my first church after seminary, Emmanuel Baptist in Greenville, Mississippi. When the Pakes moved to this small Delta city, they began visiting churches. Here is the story as John gave it to me at a reception the night before our first Sunday there.
“The first Sunday in Greenville, we visited Emmanuel Baptist Church. We were not impressed. The crowd was small, the choir was poor, and the sermon was average. And yet, strangely, we felt the Lord drawing us to join. But we didn’t.”
“The next Sunday, we visited Calvary Baptist. This was another story. The church was overflowing, the choir was terrific, and the sermon was inspired. But, we felt no leadership from the Lord to unite with Calvary. So, next Sunday, we went back to Emmanuel.”
“It was the same story: poor crowd, choir, sermon. Once again, the Holy Spirit was nudging us to join. So we did.”
“Within two years,” John said, “everything had changed. The pastor resigned to go to another church, they had made me the Sunday School director, and now, we have a new pastor.”
John’s point is one pastors would like every newcomer and “church-shopper” (don’t you hate that term!) to know: our church may not be what you are looking for, but it could well be the one God is leading you to. Perhaps He wants you to come help this church become more Christlike.
6) Lastly, I’d love for Henry to pastor a church for about six months and find out what it’s like on the other side of the pulpit.
The minister is knocking himself out trying to keep his congregation together, to pay the bills and get the roof fixed and plan the services. He struggles to minister to those who are sick, having surgery, upset, seeking, doubting, dying, and grieving. He does the counseling, the weddings, the funerals, and the janitorial work in some cases. He works on sermons that address real concerns and is continually smarting from criticism that his messages are too short, too long, too dry, too light, too emotional, too uninspiring, too theological, and too funny. He struggles to have a Bible study time of his own and a prayer time that is unhurried. He has a family, too, and they need more of him than he has left, which leaves him with a chronic nagging guilt over his priorities. He tries to read some of the religious magazines which fill his mailbox, tries to read the occasional book, tries to attend the denominational gatherings his bishop/superintendent/director-of-missions says are urgent, and tries to have time to meet his wife or a pastor friend for lunch once in a while.
Then, on Sunday morning, the minister–fatigued from nights at the hospital with a dying member, committee meetings without end, and criticism flowing in from every quarter–walks up to the pulpit and attempts to turn all that off and lead the congregation–and himself!–in worship. He gives it his best shot. Hopefully what he had to offer today was acceptable to God, and not incidentally, to the official board who has been on his back lately.
Then someone hands the poor pastor Hank’s list of “rules” which a church must meet if it is to be honored with him and his wife becoming members. No raising of hands, no praise band, no levity in the sermon, no touchy-feely, don’t embarrass us by over-welcoming us, and do not follow up on our visit.
The minister reads that and his spirit drops another six inches. He feels someone has just placed another concrete block on his back, adding to an already considerable burden.
7) And so, my prayer for Henry and Hankette is this: “Dear Lord, forgive them. They know not what they do. And please help your servants the ministers to ignore such egotistical demands. May all such church-seekers humble themselves and follow the counsel of your servant Paul who told us to be devoted to one another in brotherly love and to give preference to one another in honor.”
That last is a reference to Romans 12:10. Verse 3 of that chapter reads: “For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think, but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.”
And verse 16. “Be of the same mind toward one another, do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.”
You listening, Henry? Hankette? This has your name all over it. And mine, too, so frequently.
Hank and Hankette sound like a bit much. But to give them some credit, lots of people find the process of finding a church home to be frustrating — and it’s frustrating because they take it so-very-seriously. If you’re looking at a church as a social club it’s not that big of a deal. My guess is we’re not seeing these folks at their all-time best.
Also, about the praise band thing, there is a tendency in many mainline churches to strongly associate praise bands, etc., with dumbed down worship. Often that’s not a fair criticism — but sometimes it is. This may be reflecting a legitimate, substantive concern, not just a matter of style.
Is it really common to have live-and-in-person church delegates show up on newcomers’ doorsteps?
Maybe that’s Southern hospitality in action. I cannot quite imagine. I mean, if I’ve recently moved in, there are boxes everywhere and I am not up for surprise visitors. Even if I’ve been in town for a while, it would be just my luck to have Cheerful Church Lady show up the one day when the dishes are nearly overflowing in the sink and the dust bunnies under the couch are threatening to take on lives of their own. As much as you may say you don’t care about such things, I’m going to be embarrassed by the state of my house.
A letter, on the other hand, saying “We’re delighted you worshipped with us last Sunday and hope you’ll join us again” — that is welcome even on laundry day. Actual U.S. postal mail that is not a bill or an advertisement is so rare these days, even a standard welcome letter is a bit of a treat.
My heart really goes out to Henry and Hankette and people like them. Unfortunately they are not asking any questions that pertain to Christianity. At no point do they seek a pastor that preaches the Gospel. At no point to the request a church that will show love and caring. While they would be welcomed at Cammack United Methodist Church, the probably would not return for a second Sunday – mainly because they would be welcomed back with open arms.
Many times we confuse shyness with arrogance. Henry and Hankette do not appear to be shy. Shy people do not make demands for a service.
When I sense a guest at church has a personal agenda similiar to the folk in your example I tell them “Please vist with us a while and see if this is what God is leading you to. However, remember, we are not joining you – you will be joining us.” Too often even that fails to turn them away and we have to try to work out a relationship that honors God. Usually it does not work for the new people or the church. They sooner or later go on their way. Better to warn them off in love and get on with the kingdom business our Lord has assigned.
There are some people I wouldn’t want in my church. As a Pastor, I had to protect my flock.
When people came, and wanted to join, I asked, ”What was your last church like/ Why did you leave/
If they said it was warm and friendly, I said,”so are we.”
If they left for a non biblical issue, or because they didn’t have their way, I told them, You wouldn’t like it here either.
What was missing to me was any indication of what they could do for the Church, it was all about the Church meeting their needs and their requirements. I have made follow-up phone calls to visitors and found it to be 1)very interesting
and 2)not my “calling”. Some of the most refreshing calls that I made though were the ones who told me that they would be visiting again but would appreciate that we not call too often. I will take honesty and visiting again over being nice on the phone and then disappearing.
My favorite personal visit story is the time, years ago, I visited a Church and got there to find that I was one of only 2 men in suits, me and the preacher; everyone else was casual. Not too hard for folks to identify the visitor!
You analysis is correct when you write “5) I’d like to ask Henry, “Where is the Holy Spirit in your search for a church?”.”
It is not about us, but about the Lord. We come together for worship and we get the benefit of fellowship with other Christians. Church should be unlike any other organization in the world, ordained and commissioned by the Lord.
Presentation is important, more so for a professor who is schooled in that than others but biblical content is more so. The Holy Spirit works through God’s Word regardless of whether it is read by the pastor or preached without notes.
I have read and re-read your summary and I don’t think this is a case of shyness as it is “creating God in their (Henry and Hankette)own image” as many people do today. People today are independent and think the church is a customer service organization like the corner hardware store and that they can insist on wants/changes that ignore the work of the Holy Spirit.
Pastors are undershepherd’s of the Great Shepherd and are accountable for the flock but they are not customer service representatives. Pastors must do what is right but at the same time we are human and subject to sin. Criticism hurts and causes the self-monitoring process to kick in. If the criticism is biblical, we need to ask forgiveness of God and man and change. But we need to analyze the criticism to ascertain whether it is biblical or merely preference. If it is preference, then we need to address that and not change.
I am with you on “Now, personally, I do not have the foggiest notion what clapping on one and three or on the backbeat means. As one with a stunted sense of rhythm, I’ve noticed my tendency to clap on the opposite beat from the one church members around me are emphasizing. I take that as a birth defect and usually choose not to clap at all.”
Dr J
Si, I can top that one. The first time I visited a Presbyterian church I found out the hard way that it is NOT the custom in all churches to stand when the Gospel is read!
I was about fourteen. The horror.
🙂
Multiple services solve some problems. Our church began an early contemporary service a few yrs ago, and it rapidly grew with a largely younger crowd. Then we swapped and put the traditional service at 8:30. I prefer that one, as I like choral music, but the contemporary service is much more exciting and responsive to the message. Total attendance is up, and fellowship is great, including a break for handshaking, which Hank would sure not like.
On contacting, some SS person once told us that return visits went way up when a layman visited on Mon-Wed, and a staff member, pref pastor, before then end of the wk.
Hi, Joe–
Thanks for reading my post and taking it so seriously in your response. Your response #6 is particularly important to me. Being the head of church really is a difficult job, and I can see where my tongue-in-cheek criticisms could be hurtful to a hardworking pastor. I’ve clearly offended you with that, and that offense was unanticipated and unintended. I ask your forgiveness.
I actually agree with more of your responders than you might think. My desire to be close to God is first and foremost in my search for a church. Maybe I’m more easily distracted than most, but some of these seemingly minor things throw off my ability to get close to Him. You’re likely right that this says as much about me as it does about those at the church around me.
It’s worth pointing out that I’m coming from the best church experience I’ve ever had in my life–an absolutely fabulous congregation that challenged me to be the best Christian I possibly could. I was married there, went to service there for several years, loved all of the ministers, and was very sorry to move away. To be sure, it wasn’t perfect, but I had absolutely no complaints about the place. All of the places I’ve seen since fall short of the beautiful, transcendent experience I enjoyed there. I think some of this is because my old church valued God over community (rather than the other way around, which I sometimes feel is the case at churches I’ve visited lately…the notion of social club first, Scripture a distant second).
In any event, I don’t see any problems with looking around for the church that’s the best fit to get me closer to God. If others prefer a place that isn’t my cup of tea, God bless them–they should continue to go there. But please know that it is my desire to get closer to God–not egotism (a sin that I admit I’m guilty of)–that leads me to shop around.
In any event, thank you for your response. I ask forgiveness if I offended you. God willing, we’ll both be in heaven someday, laughing about all this together.
–“Henry”
Hello, “Hankette” here.
First off, I find it hilarious that you categorize “Henry” as shy. He is one of the least shy people I have ever met. But shyness and wanting strangers groping you are two different things all together.
Never was it suggested that these churches were horrible places that shouldn’t serve their parishoners. Simply that they weren’t the correct place for us.
Different people have different wants and needs in a worship experience. Some people enjoy the outstretched arms, the theatrical priests, and the praise bands. Me, I prefer a structured service rooted in tradition. I like hearing the word of God within the context of the Bible story being presented. That is how I connect to God, and it seems fully appropriate to me that I find a place of worship that allows me that experience. Part of what I love about the Episcopal church is that it allows for worship experiences that suit many different people, and there is a church home out there for us that will meet our desire to connect with God in our own, personal way.
If you read the entirety of Romans chapter 12 (I prefer to take Biblical references in context rather than pick and choose verses that suit me) it speaks of how we all have different gifts, and we all need to bring those gifts to work for God in the way that’s appropriate for us. We must all live in harmony together.
Our talents and gifts (which we are generous with) are best utilized in a different type of community than what you offer. We DO know what we are doing, and believe God is with us as we are making our decision and will lead us to the right place for us. We already know of one such church that will meet our “requirements” – but are hoping to find one more geographically convenient to us.
“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” Romans 12:5-6
Well! This is from Joe after discovering that “Henry” had read the article about his blog and had left his own contribution to the discussion. I can only conclude that my lovely North Carolina son who sent Henry’s article in the first place had forwarded mine to him. I’ll get you for this, Marty! (We’re 750 miles apart, but I can see him laughing at this little thing he has pulled off.) We have to have a talk, son.
Okay, now. Henry is a class act, isn’t he. A lesser person would have been offended at some of my conclusions and a couple of remarks from our readers. So, dear brother in the Lord, thank you for the gentle spirit with which you received this autopsy we ran on you! We are most impressed.
As I said in the opening of the article, I was not sending this to Henry and therefore, had not the slightest idea he would ever read any of it. Regular readers recognize that I have been posting a series of articles on “Christian Fellowship,” and inspired by the testimony of a new internet friend, Chris, a lawyer in the Northeast, had presented her testimony about how she, a shy person, had been received in her present church.
That’s why Marty forwarded Henry’s blog, since it dealt with some of the same issues.
I keep learning that in cyberspace, there is no hiding. You put it out there and God alone knows where it lands (really). And so I did something I would not have done in a hundred years had I known Henry would actually read this: I treated him as though he were fictional and not a real person and therefore not capable of being offended. After all, he would never know me and I would never learn who he is, you and I would have our little conversation here about church-shoppers and go on our way with no one hurt.
Henry asked me to forgive him. But I need to emphasize he did not offend me. Obviously, the positions he took raised my dander, but that’s probably because we pastors have encountered such attitudes so often over the years from church-shoppers that we develop defenses against them. So, Henry, for treating you like a non-person and for any unfairness in my conclusions and criticisms, I apologize and ask for your forgiveness.
I’ve been doing this blog for some 4+ years, and this is a first. (I’m not saying this is the first time I’ve overstepped myself, but the first time I’ve had this kind of exchange with the subject of one of our pieces here.) Overall, I have to say, particularly since Henry responded so graciously, I’m glad it happened. This discussion on the reception of newcomers and the integrity of the worship experience is well worth having.
We invite Henry and Hankette to add additional comments here or any time in the future. I think Henry can tell from the comments above that all our readers are not Southern Baptists, but come from a variety of denominations.
Joe–
For what it’s worth, Marty is blameless here. I found your blog in a roundabout manner (someone’s search terms to my post landed me on your post). So go easy on the kid.
Mutually forgiven. Cool. As different as Christianity can be from denomination to denomination and from region to region, isn’t it awesome when our commonalities come through? We tend to forget about them.
Best of luck in your ministry and in accepting newbies into your church. I do hope Hankette’s and my experiences did make you think a little bit for future encounters with new folks.
And feel free to stop by my own blog if you’re interested. I suspect you’ll disagree with much of it, but I like talking with people I disagree with. It’s good for me (makes me smarter) and good for a democracy. I can’t stand my fellow liberals who put themselves in cocoons of the like-minded and never venture out.
–“Henry”
At the expense of having the cliche police come down on me, I’m reminded of two as I read these comments, the first of which has something to do with the forest and the trees, and the second has to do with can’t see the zebra for looking at the stripes.
I’m not a preacher, just some one trying to come to grips with my sinfulness, and knowing that as a Christian, I believe in Jesus and the things he tried to teach us, and I don’t believe he said anything about His church being of a particular discipline or dogma.
I better stop there, because if I continue down that path, I’m sure that there would be some good folks who read this, that would think of another cliche, something along the lines of a pot calling a kettle black.
ks
Dear Joe, Henry, and Hankette,
Thanks for some insightful words. Isn’t it great that we can disagree
and still agree and humble ourselves when we are wrong or maybe been
misunderstood. Haven’t all of us preachers been there? It is amazing
that you can preach three points or maybe make 8 points like Henry and
still we don’t always make ourselves clear. Where is Henry’s blog? I
think that I would like to hear more from him.
I recently received an email from someone about the controversial
organ.
It can be found at Vintage Faith and the controversial organ. It is
amazing how the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Keep up the good work, Joe.
Jimmy Griffith